发烧论坛

注册

 

发新话题 回复该主题

LP的高频究竟能到多少?提供一些客观资料. [复制链接]

查看: 5583|回复: 38
1#
LP和CD比较的时候,经常被提到CD的高频去得不高.有些人(例如名琴LP)还经常引用一些文章说LP的高频经常在25khz以上,甚至可以到48khz.

http://bbs.hifi168.com/Bbs/article.asp?titleid=97420&ftdate=20060422&nTypeId=10

我记得我上次特地问名琴LP,说LP上面有超高频的实验原文究竟在哪里.如何知道超高频的信息是有效信息,还是噪声,结果没有明确回复.

我这里倒是读到一片比较可靠的文章,或者说是介绍,认为LP的高频或许可以到25khz,但并不普遍,而且LP单面的播放长度直接和音量,低音,高音的信息有关.

CD可以存放74分钟,不论你高音,低音,音量是多少,而LP就不同,

Next limitation: treble. You can put as much treble on a DAT or CD as you want. Unfortunately this is not true on a record (or analog tape for that matter). Although 25kHz response is possible, excessive transients are a problem.

Watch excessive treble boost in the 8 to 16 kHz range in mixing, you won’t get it back on your record. You can’t break the laws of physics, sorry. A good idea is to check your mix against a record you like with lots of cymbals. If you hear a lot more sizzle on your tape, chances are it won’t make it to the record. Particularly watch those ‘S’s. Use a de’esser on vocals. I don’t do endorsements, but dbx makes a great one. This will give you more overall treble because in cutting your record, the treble limiter won’t be chomping on your cymbals too.

这篇文章的出处是RTI黑胶压片厂的官方网站.

http://www.recordtech.com/prodsounds.htm
分享 转发
TOP
2#

Raxel 在 2006-4-23 23:51:28 发表的内容
科研级旗舰 在 2006-4-23 23:47:49 发表的内容
其实纯粹的高频延伸量并不是很重要,但一些CD机不重视CD20K左右的锐截止滚降问题带来的高频相位偏差,和数码滤波器带来的某些非线形失真。。。。。。。。。。


我就是单纯谈LP的高频,因为我觉得有时候谣言传多了就变真理了.就是想讨论个究竟.LP上面有超高频一说在港台杂志上有时候也看到.


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

在七十年代.....日本JVC的CD4唱頭頻應就到45kHz啦!

當然要配合JVC的LP黑膠唱片.......鬼佬這方面比日本仔落后..哈哈!.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

The Victor Company of Japan (JVC) developed a different method for 4-2-4
transmission and distribution. The technique was called “CD-4” as well as “Quadradisc.”
CD-4 was not considered to be a matrix system, but a carrier system. It allowed for full
recovery of the initial four channels with absolute channel separation.
Just like an ordinary two-channel vinyl where the left channel was stored on the left side
of the record groove and the right channel was stored on the right side of the record
groove, the Quadradisc stored music in the same manner. The unique feature of CD-4
was that the signals stored on each side of the record’s grooves actually contained the
information for the left rear and right rear loudspeakers as well. The left side of the
groove contained the sum of left front and left rear signals, and the right side of the
groove contained the sum of the right front and right rear loudspeaker signals. The
signals had a frequency range of 30Hz-15Khz.
In addition each side of the record grooves contained a high-frequency carrier signal.
The 30Khz signal was a modulation made up of the difference between the front and rear
signals on each side of the groove. The signals on the left wall of the groove were
compared to the carrier signal of the left side and the channels were successfully
separated. The same process occurred with the signals on the right wall of the record’s
The Implementation Of Ambisonics For Restoring Quadraphonics A. Digenis
15
groove. This was the same technology used for the transmission of stereo signal over FM
radio. A single signal was transmitted, which contained the sum of both the left and right
channels. The FM receiver produced a carrier signal at a frequency of 38KHz that was
used to separate the left and right channels from the single transmitted signal.
When the record was played over a standard stereo set-up, the left front and left rear
signals were projected out of the left loudspeaker, and the right front and right rear
signals were played through the right loudspeaker. In mono, the signals from all the
loudspeakers were heard at the same level as the left and right groove that were already
the sums of the front and rear, as equally combined. Neither of the 30KHz carrier signals
will be heard, as anything above 20KHz is inaudible by the human ear.
In order to playback CD-4 discs with full surround capabilities, additional equipment
were required compared to the matrix systems. Most turntable cartridges and styli were
only capable of reproducing frequencies up to 20KHz since anything of higher magnitude
humans cannot hear. The use of a standard cartridge and styli would not allow for four
loudspeaker-playback as they would not pickup the 30KHz carrier signal. It was thus
necessary to use the Shibata stylus with a cartridge that would allow for a frequency
response up to 45KHz.
Secondly a small device, the demodulator, was required to
extract the four channels. A few manufacturers later developed amplifiers that had a
demodulator built-in (The institute of High Fidelity 1974).
Quadradiscs provided better channel separation than the matrix systems, as well as stereo
and mono compatibility. Apart from those advantages, the system also had its downfalls.
The frequency response was limited to 15KHz. Due to additional space required to cut
the high frequency carrier signal grooves, the entire record needed to be cut 3dB lower
than ordinary vinyl. Due to the high frequency response of CD-4, during the cutting
process of the master copy, the process needed to be carried out at half speed. This was
because the cutting heads at that time were not capable of cutting grooves of such high
frequency with efficiency. Unlike matrix systems that could be transmitted over the
radio, the FCC did not permit for the transmission of Quadradiscs (Runstein 1976).
最后编辑csdam
TOP
3#

该用户帖子内容已被屏蔽
TOP
4#

Raxel 在 2006-4-24 8:31:00 发表的内容
csdam 在 2006-4-24 1:19:11 发表的内容
In order to playback CD-4 discs with full surround capabilities, additional equipment
were required compared to the matrix systems. Most turntable cartridges and styli were
only capable of reproducing frequencies up to 20KHz since anything of higher magnitude
humans cannot hear. The use of a standard cartridge and styli would not allow for four
loudspeaker-playback as they would not pickup the 30KHz carrier signal. It was thus
necessary to use the Shibata stylus with a cartridge that would allow for a frequency
response up to 45KHz. Secondly a small device, the demodulator, was required to
extract the four channels. A few manufacturers later developed amplifiers that had a
demodulator built-in (The institute of High Fidelity 1974).



30khz的究竟是什么信号?我没有看到说唱头配合LP,音乐内容的高频可以相应到45khz.


好资料,收藏!
TOP
5#

科研级旗舰 在 2006-4-23 23:47:49 发表的内容
其实纯粹的高频延伸量并不是很重要,但一些CD机不重视CD20K左右的锐截止滚降问题带来的高频相位偏差,和数码滤波器带来的某些非线形失真。。。。。。。。。。


我就是单纯谈LP的高频,因为我觉得有时候谣言传多了就变真理了.就是想讨论个究竟.LP上面有超高频一说在港台杂志上有时候也看到.
TOP
6#

csdam 在 2006-4-24 1:19:11 发表的内容
In order to playback CD-4 discs with full surround capabilities, additional equipment
were required compared to the matrix systems. Most turntable cartridges and styli were
only capable of reproducing frequencies up to 20KHz since anything of higher magnitude
humans cannot hear. The use of a standard cartridge and styli would not allow for four
loudspeaker-playback as they would not pickup the 30KHz carrier signal. It was thus
necessary to use the Shibata stylus with a cartridge that would allow for a frequency
response up to 45KHz. Secondly a small device, the demodulator, was required to
extract the four channels. A few manufacturers later developed amplifiers that had a
demodulator built-in (The institute of High Fidelity 1974).



30khz的究竟是什么信号?我没有看到说唱头配合LP,音乐内容的高频可以相应到45khz.
TOP
7#

学习
TOP
8#

Wilmer威馬 在 2006-4-24 12:28:18 发表的内容
不想找什么技术文章或太专业化,但我们说是发烧的领域,并非一般民用范筹,例如我们不会用一片儿歌 CD 为基准,那么在市场有提供,消費者可接触的质量极限下,有几点我们先思考一下;
1)假设母带的频宽没问题,那么到底黑胶片子,在容许用上所有能用的压刻技术/物料去优化的话容量极限可以存到多大频宽?
2)到底我们虽然什么频宽才称得上好声?
3)CD(44.1 采样/22K 频宽上限)、DAT(48 采样/24K 频宽上限)、DVD(96 采样/48K 频宽上限)、DVD-A 及 SACD(192 采样/96K 频宽上限)在标称频宽上限以外,在不管电平/分贝值的情况下,到底还有没有可以听到、感觉到、或测量分析到,和主频带的音乐讯号有直接关连(例如分析出是和某乐器直接关连的二、三、四。。。。次谐波/泛音)的有效讯息存在?
4)同第三点,LP 在标称频宽上限以外,有否和主频带的音乐讯号有直接关连的有效讯息存在?



我的问题没有这么复杂,我也不需要猜测,而是客观数据.

如果RTI(现在的主要黑胶压片厂之一)说他们生产的黑胶,以现在的技术而言也就到25khz.如果你有不同的看法,我需要看到这方面实验的数据.而不是单方面的臆测,猜想.

因为无根据的主观猜测,臆断,根本无法证明对错.
最后编辑Raxel
TOP
9#

csdam 在 2006-4-24 1:19:11 发表的内容
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

在七十年代.....日本JVC的CD4唱頭頻應就到45kHz啦!

當然要配合JVC的LP黑膠唱片.......鬼佬這方面比日本仔落后..哈哈!.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.


唱头可以相应到多少根本丝毫说明不了任何问题,有些唱头号称可以响应到90db动态,so what?说明LP上面可以有90db动态?一起家用卡带的磁头也可以响应到25khz,说明普通家用卡带就可以到25khz???

RTI是主要的黑胶压片厂之一,如果他们生产的黑胶,高频最高可能到25khz(j极限),那你的唱头就算标称可以到100khz.那又怎么样?
TOP
10#

顶起,欢迎说LP上有超高频信息的玩家,提供资料.
TOP
发新话题 回复该主题